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Latest update 05.05.2001
Questions and Answers, Part 12
Answered by: P. T. Kekkonen
Interesting Belgian revolver
My name is Felipe, I'm from Brazil and like guns. I'm not a collector, I just have some pieces. Maybe you can help me to identify this revolver (atach a picture ). I know it is Belgian because have a stamp in the cylinder: Oval with "ELG" letters and in the barrel: "R" with a crown. The caliber is .36. I believe it is a Lebel or Warnant. I really appreciate if you can help me...
Sincerely, Felipe, Brazil
Your revolver is usually incorrectly known as "Gasser Pattern revolver made for Kingdom of Montenegro". Its seems, however, built for export to Imperial Russia, but these guns were sold also to South-America. Caliber may be 9 x 26R Gasser-Kropatschek, with actual bullet diameter .365. The hinged-frame action was design of Belgian firearms manufacturer Jean Warnant and his assistant Fransquet, but the twin-latch opening was designed by Philippe Counot of Belgian Auguste Francotte's plant. Design of Warnant & Fransquet had just one opening lever on the right or left side of frame.
There were four models of Montenegrian Gasser revolvers produced by Leopold Gasser and many Belgian firms for export to the Montenegrian Kingdom until 1918. It was a common practise that small Belgian manufacturers did not inscribe or stamp their name on the revolvers and shotguns. 11 mm Montenegrian Gasser revolvers were heavy and big, usually with twin-latch hinged frame. (Opening levers on both sides of the frame; Counot's design). Cases for them can be made from .45 - 70 Government rifle cases. There were, however, also revolvers chambered for 9 x 26 mm G-K cartridges; so-called "boy's revolvers", usually made in Belgium. Montenegrian King Nikita (or Nicolas; reign 1910 - 18) was a notable shareholder of a firm Leopold Gasser and an efficient salesman of old-fashioned revolvers, already before his royal reign.
Above: Original Gasser Montenegrian revolver Model 1880 with hinged frame and Gounot's twin-latch. Caliber 11 mm. Optional barrel lengths were either 133 mm or 235 mm. Co-designer or this model, Archeduke Nikita (later King) of Montenegro, preferred "Buntline Special" barrel with a length 235 mm.
Below: Solid-frame Gasser Model 1873 with five-shot cylinder. Caliber 11 mm. Also sold as a "Montenegrian model".
King Nikita declared a famous Royal Act: "Every male citizen of Montenegro is a member of the Militia, and therefore not only justified but also obliged to possess at least one Gasser Pattern revolver." Montenegrian models were designed in 1880, both solid-frame and hinged-frame versions, caliber usually 11 mm, but after declaration of Royal Act the 9 mm G-K models became also popular, since the teen-ager or still younger boys got the right (and obligation) to acquire, possess and carry a revolver. Population of Montenegro was considerably less than half million citizens in 1910, but some patriotic (= wealthy) Montenegrians acquired as many as a dozen Gasser wheelguns.
Huge orders of obsolete Montenegrian revolvers kept the firm Leopold Gasser alive until the end of First World War, although Austro-Hungarian armed forces did no more order 8 mm Rast-Gasser revolvers after adoptment of self-loading 9 mm Steyr-Hahn pistols since 1912. Less wealthy citizens of Montenegrian Kingdom acquired cheap Belgian look-alikes of Montenegrian Gasser revolvers, including Warnant's Montenegrian models, because the Royal Act mentioned Gasser as a pattern of revolver but not as an actual manufacturer of it.
Name "Gasser Pattern" was incorrect, because hinged-frame model was a Belgian design, sometimes with a patent marking: "Warnant-Fransquet Brevete" on the left side of barrel and sometimes with a trade-mark: "L & J Warnant. Hognee, Belgique". No other stamps but proof-marks "LEG" in oval and "R" with a crown were mandatory on the Belgian firearms. ("R" = "Rayé" is a Belgian proof-mark on rifled firearms and revolvers. "Brevete" or "Bte" means "a patent"). Manufacturers of high-quality Belgian firearms like Warnant, Aug. Francotte, F.N. and some others stamped trade-marks or patent markings on their products, but there were also many anonyme producers of Belgian handguns and shotguns.
(Anonyme Spanish firearms were and are also common all'round the world, being the scourges for the gunwriters: Owners of them are eager to know the year when their "heirlooms" are made and whether they are safe to shoot, or whether they are "valuable collector's items").
From top to down:
L & J Warnant's "Montenegrian Model" with solid frame. Caliber 11 mm. Five-shot cylinder.
Original hinged-frame Warnant revolver with marking: "Warnant- Fransquet Bte". Bolt lever on the left side of frame only.
Warnant's "Russian export" revolvers with finger hook triggerguard and hinged frame with Smith & Wesson's latch design. Note also a barrel rib similar to Smith & Wesson Russian model. Pocket-sized revolvers were chambered for .380 Enfield (9 x 20 R) caliber commercial cartridges, also known as .38 Smith & Wesson (Short; not Special), loaded by Cartoucherie Russo-Belge in Liège, Belgium since 1890 until the First World War.
Bigger Military & Constabulary Model was chambered for 9 mm (.38 S & W/ .380 Enfield) or .44 S & W Russian cartridges.
Hook-like triggerguard projection for middle finger denotes export effort to Imperial Russia, where this kind of triggerguard spur was familiar from Smith & Wesson Russian revolvers. Warnant's exclusive Montenegrian model had a solid frame, and no finger hook.
Warnant's Russian models had this hook. Latch of hinged frame was similar to contemporary Smith & Wesson revolvers and a sight rib on the barrel similar to S & W Russian revolver, with a trade-mark inscribed or stamped on the rib.
Your revolver stays, unfortunately, still unknown to me, being an "anonyme Belgian revolver; caliber .36 (presumably 9 x 26 mm G-K); Russian export model".
Sources of illustration. Photograph: Felipe (Brazil). Drawings: Alexandr Borisovich Zhuk (Russia).
2104 MMI; PT
Mysterious "TIKKA" stamp on MP35
I have an MP35/I submachine gun that has absolutely no manufacturer markings, other than the triangle with T symbol stamped into the end of the receiver tube. See picture attached.
The gun is pre-WWII, has serial numbers and crown-over-N smokeless powder proof marks, no other markings. Doesn't say "Bergmann", doesn't say "MP35/I"; nothing. This is mysterious to me, and I wonder if anyone can shed any light on the likely history of this gun.
Thank you. Byron, New Mexico, USA
"T in a triangle" is really a stamp of Tikkakoski Oy. All other remains a guesswork, but likely history is that this very gun is truly made by Tikkakoski Oy, as a sample for planned production of MP 35 (or actually "Bergmann Maschinen Karabiner": BMK) in Finland. Production of submachine guns was banned in Germany since 1918 until ca. 1935. Just those "Machine Carbines" were allowed to product for police forces, according to the dictates of Versailles "Peace Treaty".
BMK was designed in 1932. A limited batch of these guns was made in Germany "for official use", i.e. for police (but not for German Army). German military firearms designs were scattered to foreign countries after WW I: Production of Bergmann MP 18/I submachine guns and machine cannons into Switzerland; production of MP 28/II mainly into Belgium; yield of Rheinmetall MP (designed in Switzerland) into Austria, et cetera... Rheinmetall submachine gun is known as a Steyr-Solothurn MP 34, but the very first Rheinmetall's experimential model was MKb 19.
(Swiss-made submachine guns were also "machine carbines". Some of them were really cavalry-carbine sized guns with ca. 20 inch barrel length and delayed blowback "momentum block" action with system Pedersen. Examples: SIG/ Neuhausen MKMO and self-loading MKPO police carbine. SIG made also licenced copies of Bergmann MP 18/I submachine guns acquired for Finnish Civil Guard in 1920s).
Swiss "Solothurn" plant was actually a branch of "Rheinischen Metallwaaren- und Maschinenfabrik". Since 1922 until 1933 many German weapon designers kept their skill up-to-dated also in Soviet-Russia by the Rapallo Treaty in 1922: Germans developed tanks, military aeroplanes, submarines and technology of ammunition production, sharing their know-how with Soviet-Russians. Post-WW I Germany and Soviet-Russia were "castaway nations" and German Weimar Republic had a social-democratic administration, politically not so very far from the Russian bolshevism.
Mechanisms of BMK and MP 35 were similar. Cocking handle was non-reciprocating. Cocking movements of the breech-bolt were similar to loading of a Mauser rifle: Handle up-backwards-forwards-down. MP 35 was estimated to be "overly complicated and expensive to mass-produce" when compared with MP 38 and especially with MP 40. Limited production of MP 35 was, however, continued until the tail-end of Second World War in Germany.
When BMK was designed, it was necessary to find a mass-producer for this new gun outside Germany, or to get opinion about BMK's suitability for large-scale production by experience. Germans knew very well quality of Tikkakoski Oy products, including (and especially) SUOMI KP -31. In 1932 here was an era of Great Depression: Tikkakoski Oy had excessive production capacity, when compared with contemporary demand of submachine guns in Finland. (There were just ca. 4000 Suomi KP -31s in use during our Winter War 1939 - 40. Need was ca. 50 000 submachine guns, but according to some Finnish politicians "war is an impossible incident in our time, being too expensive way to settle controversies!". Neville Chamberlain was not only European goofy during the late 1930s). Also, don't forget that main stockholder of Tikkakoski Oy was a citizen of Germany, Willi Daugs, who had connections with German industrialists and firearms designers.
It is impossible to confirm that your BMK is "a sample of the Finnish craftmanship" made by Tikkakoski Oy for Germans, but there is some circumstantial evidence to speak for this surmise. Especially lack of any other markings but mandatory German proof-mark and serial numbers (also mandatory for records of proof-house) plus the stamp of Tikkakoski Oy. If there are not any signs of ground-away markings on the receiver of your BMK, it may be made in Finland as an unique sample gun. It is easy to fake "T in triangle" stamp, but difficult to remove original markings without tell-tale signs of grinding and welding.
Please Note: There was never a submachine gun OFFICIALLY known as MP 35/I but BMK, and MP 35 since 1936, when the name "Maschinen Pistole" was again politically correct in Germany, after nullify of Versailles Dictates. Between the models BMK and MP 35 were some external differences but actions of them were similar. In official military nomenclature is also known an abbreviation MP 35 Bgm. During the WW II a small batch of MP 35 guns were made also by a firm Junker & Ruh (code: "ajf") still in 1944. Non-German (and some German?) literature knows BMK either as MP 34 or as MP 35/I, but those abbreviations are unofficial and historically incorrect.
2104 MMI; PT
Finnish army belt pistol
What are your official sidearms in the army?
Belgian 9 x 19 mm F.N. pistols with double-action trigger mechanism. Otherwise like model F.N. GP-35.
2204 MMI; PT
Restoring the T34
I read your story about restoring the T34 with great interest. We are doing the same. We have a T34 that finally stopped running and we are trying to get it going again. Are you the person to contact with questions that we will have as we continue to restore our machine?
Hans from West Coast Armor and Artillery Museum Petaluma, California, USA
Sorry, I am not the person you're seeking, because you have troubles with engine and not the cannon or machine guns of your T34. I've never been a member of "tank crew" in our Arms Historic Guild of North-Carelia. The story about restoring the T34/86 was written by our "tele-operator" J. Hartikka. As far as I know, the engine of T34 was designed for Russian tugboats. I hope that those engines are still available from Russia. If the power transmission is a source of troubles, I am simply unable to help you, being ignorant about technology of tracked vehicles (or vehicles at all: I have never had driver's licence even for running a motor car, motor bicycle or a tractor).
2304 MMI; PT
New Finnish suppressor
Hi Pete! Excellent to see that GOW is still alive, you mentioned a while back a new suppressor for hi-power rifles, made by AU. Do you have any details on it, and maybe a website? At the moment I am using a Reflex T8M suppressor on my TRG-41, in .338 LM, and loving it.
Yours Chris, New Zealand.
There is an article written by MPP about AU "Jet-Z" (pronounced "yet chet" in Finland) suppressor published on GOW/Finnish site. Click on the word Suomeksi and then Ruutisten when the title page of GOW/Finnish exists on screen. The same article is also published on ASE UTRA website; click on Jet-Z esittely.
Construction of Jet-Z on a photo. Somewhat complicated; impossible to mass-produce. Baffles are machined from a steel bar-stock. Therefore they are very durable. Diameter of Magnum Jet-Z is 45 millimeters, length 250 mm and weight 690 grams. Performance is excellent. Tested suppressor was smaller Jet-Z Standard variation for rifles shooting medium-sized cartridges like .308 Winchester. Diameter of it is 40 mm, length just 185 mm and weight 450 grams. Price is about twinfold when compared with mass-produced Reflex T8M, but Jet-Z is designed to be everlasting, even when full-power loads or factory-loaded cartridges shall become shot only.
Article is not yet translated to English. I'll try to translate it, especially if our "freemason pigs" shall manage to suppress GOW/Finnish site. Then I'll get more time to write and translate articles for GOW/Universal site.
0904 MMI; PT
Yellow tip denotes DANGER!
Hello kind and knowledgeable gentlemen. Can you, please, help me to identify different colored bullet tips? I recently bought some .30 caliber bullets that had yellow painted tips. I know that red means tracer and black means armor piercing. But what is yellow?
Many thanks, Al
Color codes are different in various countries or military allies (NATO or ex-Warsaw Pact). Examples given: In Soviet Union and most Warsaw Pact countries denotes black .30 caliber/ 7.62 mm Mosin-Nagant bullet's tip an armor piercing bullet, but red-painted tip was a code of explosive-incendiary bullet (ZP or ZR, a.k.a. "ZaRa" bullet) after 1933 and tracer-incendiary bullet since ca. 1916 until 1932. (This 7.62 mm Z-bullet was only color-coded rifle projectile in Imperial Russia).
It's jacket was also plated with copper or Gilding metal, while usual contemporary plating was cupro-nickel (= maillechort, or "melkhyor" in Russian). Other bullets were identified by bullet point shape. Armor piercing bullet had a separate copper point cap and cupro-nickel jacket until 1930. High-explosive bullet had concave bottom of copper explosive-filled capsule projecting from it's point. Old ball model 1891 had round point and most usual ball model 1908/10 had sharp point. Tracer-incendiary bullet was also pointed. A color code and Gilding metal plating was therefore needed for Z-bullet.
In Finland was color code of AP bullet a blue tip. Finnish 7.62 (or actually .303 caliber) bullets with yellow point were hazardous to use. They were filled with white phosphorus, having incendiary effect on the hard (but non-armored) targets. Cartridges with incendiary bullets having also some explosion effect were issued to Finnish Air Forces. They were variants of British BUCKINGHAM "Anti-Zeppelin" incendiary projectiles, but without side-bleed aperture and smoke tracer, since they were intented for shooting against aeroplanes; no more against dirigibles or balloons. First lots of yellow-pointed bullets were bought from England until the Finns learned to assembly them in Finland, fortunately enough: England declared a war against Finland in 6th December 1941. Peace was concluded in 1947.
Soviet-Russian 7.62 mm bullet's yellow point denotes lead-filled boattailed D-30 bullet for long-range machine gun shooting. Contrary to Finnish yellow-nosed projectile, it has neither explosive nor incendiary effect. It is an usual "ball". Other countries or allies using yellow color code on bullet point are as follows, namely:
Argentina: Old bullet tip-code denotes "Smoke Tracer". (May be phosphorus-filled "side-bleed" Buckingham incendiary bullet? Surplus bought from England? .303 British bullets are fit for Argentinian 7.65 mm Mauser cartridges).
New code denotes Observation, EXPLOSIVE! Cartridges are dangerous to disassemble with an inertia bullet puller!
France: Post-WW II, Observation, EXPLOSIVE! See caution above.
NATO: Observation, EXPLOSIVE! See caution above.
England & British Commonwealth countries before year 1955: Proof Load for .303 British firearms. Ball is as usual, but cartridges may be dangerous to shoot because of high chamber pressure.
I presume that your .30 caliber bullets are made in/for some NATO member and so they are explosive projectiles. Handle them with care! With a couple of exceptions: YELLOW BULLET POINT OR TIP DENOTES A DANGER!
0904 MMI; PT
APPENDIX I Color codes of standard NATO small arms bullets:
Red tip: Tracer with Immediate Ignition
Black tip: Armor Piercing
Silvery tip: Armor Piercing Incendiary
Blue tip: Incendiary
Yellow tip: Observation (Explosive!)
Yellow tip & red point: Observation with Tracer (Explosive!)
Orange tip: Tracer with Dim Ignition
APPENDIX II Imperial Russian 7.62 mm Mosin-Nagant bullets:
Round point: Ball model 1891
Sharp point: Ball model 1908, without crimp groove
Sharp point; Ball model 1908/-10, with a crimp groove
Round point, lead: Short-range practice lead bullet model 1913. ("Inside lubricated": A deep hollow base was filled with lubricant and four square apertures went through the bullet "skirt"). Overall length of cartridge was ca. 60 mm
Round point, lead: Earlier short-range practice or "gallery load" cartridge with spherical bullet. Hemispherical point. Cartridge overall length was ca. 57 mm
Flat point (flush): High-Explosive model 1908
Flat point (concave): High-Explosive model 1915/-16. Bottom of copper explosive capsule extends 1.5 mm from bullet point. Bullet was a ball model 1891 with a point drilled to receive a copper capsule
Sharp copper point-cap: Armor Piercing bullet model 1915/-16
Red tip, sharp point: Incendiary Tracer bullet model 1915/-16 (Also known as "ranging bullet" in some literature). Broad bright tracer flame with 3 seconds duration. Immediate ignition in the bore. Brass case headstamped before 1933.
APPENDIX III Soviet tip color codes of 7.62 mm M-N bullets, from 1930. Standard issue bullets with sharp point:
None: Light ball "L" model 1908/-10
Yellow: Boat-tail machine gun ball D-30
Silvery: Light boat-tail ball "LPS". Iron core
Silvery: "LPS" since 1983. Hardened steel core
Green tip: Tracer T-30. Green tracer flame
Black tip: Armor Piercing B-30
Black/red tip: Armor Piercing Incendiary (old code)
Black/yellow tip: Armor Piercing Incendiary (new code)
Purple/red/green tip: Armor Piercing Incendiary Tracer
Red tip: Incendiary Explosive Observing ZR-33
Rarities. Usually unknown on literature:
Green bullet: Subsonic load before 1941. Sometimes bullet and entire case (loaded cartridge!) was dipped into green lacquer, sometimes just the visible part of bullet and neck & shoulders of a case were lacquered green, along with the head of cartridge.
Green tip acme: Subsonic load since 1941. Just the bullet's sharp apex and primer seal were lacquered green.
Black bullet: Reduced-charge load. Supersonic, although used with a suppressor S-40. Cartridge case was also chemically blackened entirely. (Bullets with cupro-nickel plating on steel jacket were not blackened. Just those bullets with Gilding metal or copper plating received bluish-black color).
Lead tip: Subsonic load for hunting of small-game. Very short and light soft-pointed bullet with a jacket looking like brass. Point shape hemispherical with diameter 8.0 millimeters. (Post-WW II "civilian" design for selected professional hunters, who were privileged to possess rifled breech-loading firearms. Replaced by .22 LR rifles and cartridges in 1950s and 60s). Cartridge overall length was ca. 60 mm.
1004 MMI; PT
Progenitors of a cartridge family
Dear Pete: Do you know anything about 6,5 x 54 mm Mannlicher- Schönauer cartridge? About its history, effects, and reloading datas...
Thanks; MEHMET S:m, TURKIYE
6.5 mm M-S cartridge was designed a full century ago for a rifle adopted in Creek as a Mannlicher Model 1903 military rifle. Italians were adopded about similar 6.5 x 52 mm Mannlicher-Carcano cartridge ten years earlier (in 1891) and during the last decade of 19th century many countries like Netherlands, Roumania, Sweden, Japan and Portugal adopted 6.5 mm rifles for their armed forces. The very first assault rifle in the world, FYODOROVA AVTOMAT Model 1916, was chambered to shoot 6.5 mm Arisaka (Japanese) cartridges with somewhat reduced powder charges. It's designer VLADIMIR G. FYODOROV was a protagonist of caliber 6.5 mm and shortened case (about 40 mm) until the final adoptment of 7.62 x 39 mm cartridge in 1943.
Just the Crecian army adopted 6.5 mm M-S rifles, but the cartridge became soon popular among hunters. Some most intrepid professional ivory hunters shot elephants with full-metal jacketed bullets of 6.5 x 54 mm Mannlicher cartridges, since the low noise level of a rifle didn't scare the elephant herd to escape or attack, and accuracy of rifle allowed clean kills with well-placed brain shots. A long round-pointed FMJ bullet perforated easily one meter thick cellular bone in the skull of elephant, without bending and deviation. In the Northern Hemisphere an arctic explorer VILHJAMUR JOHANSSON slayed several big polar bears with his beloved & infallible M-S hunting rifle. Actually, any kind of medium and big game animals on the globe are slain with 6.5 x 54 mm rifles and cartridges. All the major American ammo producers loaded 6.5 mm M-S cartridges until the Second World War era, with variety of bullets.
Effects as a military rifle are typical to 6.5 mm roundnose FMJ bullets with a low velocity: Narrow and straight wound channel, easy to heal, unless the bullet perforated vital organs. Hit on the central nervous system or cardio-vascular area in chest was usually fatal. Explosion-like effects were noted just if the bullet (shot from a very short distance) hit the filled stomach, full urinary bladder or liver (and the skull, of course). Muzzle velocity of standard military FMJ-RN bullet was mere 680 meters per second. So the effect was depending on the placement of hit only. Penetration of bullet was deep and straight, without notable "yaw effect". A good bullet for elephant hunting is a poor projectile for warfare, unless it's caliber is at least 9 millimeters. This is an acceptable rule! For hunting there were and are still available a choice of soft-pointed bullets with more devastating hit effects.
There is reloading data available for 6.5 mm M-S with American powders only. I don't know, whether those powders like DuPONT/ IMR 3031, 4895, 4350 or 4064 are available in Turkiye. Please, tell to us the names of internationally known powders available there. We are able to look from a QUICKLOAD Ballistic Program the safe loads for bullets with the weight up to 10.3 grams; the elephant slayer. Reloader of M-S cartridge must be careful: Maximum allowed chamber pressure (measured with copper crusher gauge) is mere 2700 atmospheres. On the other hand: Noise of report is rather low and the recoil is pleasingly soft.
Archive photo: Russian M43 Kalashnikov cartridges are actually close relatives to Mannlicher Carcano 1891 through experimental Geco M35.
Cartridges based on approximate head dimensions similar to the 6.5 x 54 mm are as follows, namely:
6.5 x 52 mm Mannlicher-Carcano (Italy, 1891; a predecessor).
7.75 x 39 mm Geco M35 (shortened and necked-up; Germany, 1934).
7.62 x 39 mm (Yelisarov & Syemin; Soviet-Russia, 1943, almost identical copy of Geco cartridge).
.220 Russian (necked-down M-43; Soviet-Russia, about 1960).
.22 PPC (variation of .220 Russian with a pocket for small primers, Pindell & Palmisano; USA, 1974).
.22 PPC - USA (SAKO Oy; Finland, 1988. PLEASE NOTE: This cartridege may be dangerous to shoot from rifles chambered for original .22 PPC cartridge! Additional name "USA" is misleading!).
6 mm PPC (necked-up .22 PPC, Pindell & Palmisano; USA, 1975).
6 mm PPC - USA (SAKO Oy; Finland, 1988. PLEASE NOTE: This cartridge may be dangerous to shoot from rifles chambered for original 6 mm PPC cartridge! Name "USA" is again misleading!).
Case head diameter of this "Funny Family" of cartridges is 11.3 to 11.42 millimeters. Most widely distributed member of that "family" was and is 7.62 x 39 mm Yelisarov & Syemin ("Kalashnikov") cartridge; still an officially adopted military cartridge in China, Cuba, Finland and many other emergent countries. Head diameter of 6.5 x 54 mm M-S is somewhat more large; max. 11.52 mm. "Mannlicher family" is, however, independent from "Mauser family" with head diameter ca. 12 millimeters.
0204 MMI; PT
NAGANT REVOLVER CALIBER .22 LR
Hi, Comerades! Please help me! I have Nagant Revolver made in Tula 1936, Cal. 22 LR. This gun does not have a Firing Pin. Gunsmith can not make Firing Pin without Drawing or Pic. with dimensions. He does not know, how this Pin looks like.
I know, in Finland people must have such Nagant. You got them in 1940. Please, if You have it,- send me Pic. with dimensions or drawing!
Thank You, very much: Yefim. Dallas, Texas, USA.
My partner has a .22 LR Nagant revolver, but I don't know, whether he has enough time to measure dimensions of it's firing pin and create needed drawings with AUTO CAD. I have not equipment for complicated measurements and I am able to write the text only. He may, however, photograph or scan a pic. from the hammer of his .22 LR Nagant and give some essential dimensions of the firing pin.
There is also published just recently an E-book "THE NAGANT REVOLVERS" on site: http://users.skynet.be/HL-Editions/index.html .
I don't know, whether target revolvers or "DOSAAF-NAGANTs" with caliber .22 LR are introduced by that E-book. "RADOM-NAGANT" (a rarity, made in Poland) is seemingly unknown. Unfortunately, I have not direct contact with the Web, but just a contents table of this E-book in my "writing computer". Our Russian contributor Sergey is presumably willing to tell something about history of .22 LR caliber Nagant revolvers.
2403 MMI; PT
GOW archive photo: A .22 lr Nagant found from the Finnish - Soviet front during the war 1940 - 1945 is presumably target practising revolver made for DOSAAF or Pioneer organizations. Chambers are sleeved and barrel and sights are rebuilt. It was probably lost by some Russian soldier killed in action. A Finn found it and took it at home as a special souvenir. It is logical to assume that it was brought to the front during the desperate days Russians had to assign any available firearms and troops from Leningrad district to compensate heavy losses in the Finnish front.
Pictures of KP/-31 bolt
I own a Suomi M31 sn/798, but my bolt seems to be damaged. Do you by any chance happened to have a picture of the bolt (from different angles), so I can repair the bolt.
We have not dimensioned drawings of SUOMI M31 bolt in our archives. What kind of damage is? A deactivation or some minor fault? (Missing extractor? Broken firing pin point?) It is frustrating, tricky and risky job to repair a deactivated bolt by welding additional metal to the bolt, since welding shall deteriorate the original hardening and tempering of nickel-alloyed steel bolt, making it too soft or too brittle. Try to find a spare part. We can send to you just some photographs of intact bolt, but this is all we are able to do. We have almost nil contacts with arms/ ammo & spare parts business in Finland and abroad.
2603 MMI; PT
9 x 19 mm subsonic handloads
Thank you very much for the answer. I will try the load out first and then later I might dare to try the removal of the locking rollers. (See Q & A Kickback Part 12, updated 2403 MMI. Editor's note).
Also could you recommend a good subsonic load for a 9 mm Glock G17? I am using an Impuls IIA silencer from Brügger and Thomet AG in Switzerland. Thank you in advance!
Sincerely; Lars (Norway).
Recommended powders for 9 x 19 mm Glock are those used also for ss-loads of your G3. Recommended bullet weight is 8 grams/ 123 grains. For the first shooting trials you may use an empty .22 Long Rifle case as a powder measure, filled up to its mouth level. Add the powder carefully until you'll get reliable autoloading.
You should measure and tell volume of your cartridge cases (gram/grains weight of pure water) by filling the case flush to it's mouth and weighing it. Also give weight of the bullet you'll use for your ss-handloads. These are essential "inputs" to the QUICKLOAD Ballistic program for exact "output" of loading data. Volume of 9 x 19 mm cases is variable in shells made by separate manufacturers, from ca. 0.85 gram to almost one gram of water. (1 gram = 1 cubic centimeter of water). Knowledge on bullet manufacturer and product number of a projectile is also needed for precise "input".
There is already a lot of handloading data for 9 x 19 mm ss-cartridges published on GOW sites, but it is somewhat hard to find and most information is written in Finnish. Powder in tested loads is usually Finnish VV N310. It is recommended, if available in Norway.
2603 MMI; PT
Is GOW still active?
Dear Pete, I saw your info on the reflex suppressor site. Is GOW still active? From some of the posting it looks as if the locals in your area get a bit nervous when information that they are not comfortable with is put on the web.
I find your writing of particular interest. It seems that you have a very good historical file as well as an excellent knowledge of what the Russians have done in the past. Over the past twelve years or so I have actively researched the field and have quite a few patents that I have found in the world wide literature.
We are trying to keep at least GOW/Universal (in English) alive and active. We have nowadays a contributor living in Moscow, Russia. So, we can get information about Imperial Russian and Soviet inventions and innovations unknown or forgotten in the West. As well as I know, the patent was unknown way to protect inventor's right to his/her discovery in Czarist and especially Soviet Russia. Therefore it is a lucky accident to get some detailed information about some remarkable innovations.
Example given: Mr. LEWIS WELLS BROADWELL was presumably citizen of Imperial Russia? At least he was a resident of St. Petersburg in early 1860s, when he invented a metal sealing ring of breechloader firearms, especially artillery pieces. Broadwell was unable to get a patent in Russia or elsewhere as an inventor. Nominal patentee of British Patent (1863) was his British patent attorney. Invention was widely adopted in Russia (Obukhov) and Germany (Krupp). It is still applied in heaviest artillery pieces, shooting "bagged charges" without a case at all, using either sliding or rotating breech block.
Some good news: GOW/Finnish is no more sole source of Finnish officials' anxiety: An organization ARMS LEAGUE (like N.R.A. in USA) is under process of forming in Finland.
2603 MMI; PT
.308 Norma Magnum cases
Hi there, my name is James and i would like to know if you can tell me where to get .308 Norma Magnum brass for reloading? I live in Manitoba, Canada. Thank you.
Try to find some Canadian distributor of Norma ammo or E-mail address of Norma plant (in Sweden). They'll presumably produce still at least loaded .308 NM cartridges, but also sell unprimed empty brass. They'll also probably tell to you, from where you can find the closest to you dealer of their products in Canada, or at least Canadian importer of Norma ammo.
2603 MMI; PT
Scope mount for combo gun
Can you tell me where I can buy scope mounts for the Valmet 412S combination rifle/shotgun?
Photo: BR-Tuote scope mount on Tikka rifle/shotgun. See also export contact.
From distributor of SAKO and TIKKA firearms. Former VALMET 412S is today made in Italy for SAKO Oy as TIKKA 512S. Quickly-detachable mounts SAKO OPTILOCK are fit for VALMET 412S, TIKKA 412S/ 512S guns and discontinued PETRA/ HUNTER selfloader rifle. There is a choice of Optilock mounts as follows:
Scope dia. Height Outside dia. of objective.
25.4 mm/ 1" Low 30.5 mm 55 mm
ditto Medium 35.5 mm 65 mm
ditto High 40.5 mm 75 mm
30 mm Low 32.5 mm 59 mm
ditto Medium 36.5 mm 67 mm
ditto High 40.5 mm 75 mm
Note: Listed outside diameters of objective are maximum readings! See also selection of mounts from BR-TUOTE website.
1803 MMI; PT
Subsonics for G3
Hello, I was reading an article by you at the "Gunwriters on the Web" on subsonic ammunition. I am interested in making a subsonic load with a 150 grs bullet for my service G3 rifle. Do you have any suggestions (safe ones) as to how I should start and what powders and primers to use, and could you tell me if it will be possible for the rifle to autoload a new cartridge with subsonic charge! I would appreciate the answer very much!
Sincerely Lars from Norway
If you can remove the locking rollers from your G3, using it as a "straight" blowback rifle without element of delayed blowback, there is at least theoretically possible to get autoloading function with subsonic loads. I think, however, that it is better to be safe than sorry and load the rifle manually for each shot. (Above mentioned trick is NOT tried, as well as I know! Without possibility to get a G3 for research I am unable to calculate proper loads for non-delayed action of this very rifle).
Our "policy" for loading of ss-loads is to use as easy-to-ignite powder as is available. Most widely used is VihtaVuori N310, but our test-shooter Markus (MPP) has also HODGDON "CLAYS" (original Australian) powder for loading trials in next summer. Swedish NORMA R1 is tested and found to be excellent stuff for .308 Win. subsonics, but it is expensive even in Sweden: Price per kilogram of R1 is about twinfold when compared with N310. Loading data is same for N310 and R1. VihtaVuori's N320 is also OK for ss-loads. Primers used are CCI-200 Large Rifle Primers. Safe powder charge for first shooting trials is 0.50 gram of N310, N320 or R1. (Accidental double charge shall generate a chamber pressure about as high as a factory-load, but not yet dangerous overpressure in .308 Winchester cartridge with 150 grs bullet).
If the bullet velocity is transsonic or supersonic, you should reduce the charge (carefully) until the "cracky" flight noise of bullet is absent. PLEASE NOTE: Before test-shooting with ss-loads you should remove ALL jacket metal fouling from the bore of your rifle. Otherwise, velocity difference of first and the next shots may be considerable, as much as 10 % from average muzzle velocity.
1803 MMI; PT.
I just visited the "Gunwriters on the Web" site and I was quite impressed by the loads of info to find in there. I really liked it, but I guess that some simple search engine would make it much easier and pleasant to use. However, I have a certain question, which I propose is not listed in the Q&A section of the site... ;-)
I'm interested in a German gunwriter, name Siegfried F. Huebner, whom I saw mentioned in an article at your site. I would very much like to find more about him, as well as about his books (of which I've only read 2 and heard about other two). Some kind of listing of his titles would be just wonderful to me... Would you, please, give me a tip on where to seek on the WWW or in your site particularly? Hope, that's not too much trouble... I'll be very thankful for your help!
Our activities are divided so that I'm producing the text only, without - practically speaking - any knowledge about computer technology and layout of sites. Some outsiders have presumably tried to organize the sites (we publish two of them, another in Finnish), but mission seems to be impossible due to the huge quantity of scattered material. I have not time and competence for this toil. Our "telegraph operator"/ layout maker lacks also time for any more extra bustle. So: Let's suffer..!
I have no knowledge about SIEGFRIED F. HÜBNER, but just one of the books written by S.F.H. I don't know, whether he is/was citizen of Germany or Switzerland. (At least two suppressors of his design were patented in Switzerland). That book I possess: "SILENCERS FOR HAND FIREARMS" is published in USA by PALADIN PRESS in 1976. I have, however, seen the same book with German text in earlier 1970s. Code number of edition in Enlish is ISBN 0-87364-055-1. I presume that this book has been out of print years ago: No idea about reprints. Unfortunately I have not E-mail address of Paladin Press at hand. Folks of Paladin may have some information about S.F.Hübner (Huebner), I think so.
0903 MMI; PT
Drawings of ORIGINAL BRENNEKE SLUG
Dear Sir, I'm trying to find in Internet drawings of Brenneke slug with all dimensions (12 g). Unfortunately I can't find anything. Could you help me, please. Thanks in advance.
Sincerely, Ivan, Ukraina
Sorry; I have not dimensional drawings of BRENNEKE SLUG easily available, or available at all. Also I have not these slugs or shotshells loaded with them in my possession. Try to find E-mail address of cartridge manufacture RWS (Germany) and ask whether peoples of RWS are willing to help you. They are makers of ORIGINAL BRENNEKE slugs and shotshells loaded with them.
1903 MMI; PT
From Gun Control to genocides
Tervehdys PT, Selailin netistä erilaisilla hakusanoilla kaikenkarvaista aseasiaa ja törmäsin melko mielenkiintoiseen artikkeliin. Linkki on http://thecowboysplace.com/gun_news.htm . Jos tästä artikkelista on jotain hyötyä aseitten kieltämissuunnitelmien tukahduttamiselle, niin toivon että tätä käytettäisiin hyväksi. Näin voin ehkä itsekin olla vaikuttamassa omalta osaltani edes vähän siihen ettei tulevaisuudessa kymmenkunta tussariani joudu sulattoon....
Are you considering backing gun control laws??? Do you think that because you may not own a gun, the rights guaranteed by the Second Amendment don't matter?
In 1929 the Soviet Union established gun control. From 1929 to 1953, approximately 20 million dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated. In 1911, Turkey established gun control. From 1915-1917, 1.5 million Armenians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
Germany established gun control in 1938 and from 1939 to 1945, 13 million Jews, gypsies, homosexuals, the mentally ill, and others, who were unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
China established gun control in 1935. From 1948 to 1952, 20 million political dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
Guatemala established gun control in 1964. From 1964 to 1981, 100,000 Mayan Indians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
Uganda established gun control in 1970. From 1971 to 1979, 300,000 Christians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
Cambodia established gun control in 1956. From 1975 to 1977, one million "educated" people, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
That places total victims who lost their lives because of gun control at approximately 56 million in the last century.
Since we should learn from the mistakes of history, the next time someone talks in favor of gun control, find out which group of citizens they wish to have exterminated.
It has now been 12 months since gun owners in Australia were forced to surrender 640,381 personal firearms to be destroyed, a program costing the government more than 500 million dollars. The results Australia-wide; Homicides are up 3.2%, Assaults are up 8 %, and Armed robberies are up 44% In that country's state of Victoria, homicides with firearms are up 300%.
Over the previous 25 years, figures show a steady decrease in armed robberies and Australian politicians are on the spot and at a loss to explain how no improvement in "safety" has been observed after such monumental effort and expense was successfully expended in "ridding society of guns." It's time to state it plainly: Guns in the hands of honest citizens save lives and property and, yes, gun-control laws only affect the law-abiding citizens. Take action before it's too late: Write or call your delegation.
Paul H:y. Edited by: PT
KNOWLEDGE ON NAGANT REVOLVERS IS AVAILABLE!
(TIETOPAKETTI NAGANT-REVOLVEREISTA NETISSÄ)
Our new E-book : "THE NAGANT REVOLVERS" is now available on our site: http://users.skynet.be/HL-Editions/index.html . Since the collapse of the Berlin-wall, many kinds of firearms which were rarely available before, are now pouring towards the West from former Soviet countries. Among those is a very interesting revolver that has a "gas seal" system which was designed by the Belgian firm Nagant, and dates back to 1895. The historic details of this unique handgun are not very well known even though it was produced in vast quantities - some 2,000,000 pieces - by Russia and Poland until the end of WW II.
The Nagant firm was in it's day one of the most renowned firms in the European light firearm's business. The success of it's "gas seal" revolver model 1895 is undoubtedly due to its official adoption by the Imperial and later Soviet Russia. But the firm Nagant did not enter the business in 1895. Before the model 1895 was issued, there was a whole family of revolvers starting with the model 1878, adopted by Belgium, and ending in 1910 with a quite rare "gas seal" model fitted with a side-swinging cylinder.
With this E-book, you will be able to follow step by step, revolver by revolver, the unwinding of the historical facts relating to the firm Nagant with a particular focus on the mechanical principles that were put together to obtain a unique handgun which many people have now the chance to own at a very low price.
The Nagant firm history: From firearms to automobiles.
The Nagant revolver Model 1895 - historical recall
- The first developments.
- The Nagant and Pieper's cartridge.
- Russia under the reign of Alexander III.
- Licence of production to Russia.
- Markings on the model 1895.
- Shift from single to double-action mode.
- Variations of the model 1895.
- Takedown of the Nagant Mod. 1895
- Takedown procedure with pictures.
- Trick to ease the hammer takedown alone.
- Mechanical principles of the revolver Nagant Mod. 1895
- The answer to gas leakage at the barrel-cylinder joint.
- The 7,62 mm Nagant ammunition.
- Lock of the revolver Nagant Mod. 1895
- The revolver Nagant model 1895 owns a true breech lock.
- Animated sequence on the locking process.
- Shooting in single and double action.
- Rebounding hammer.
- Animated sequence about the double-action mode
- The performance of the revolver Nagant Mod. 1895
- One can first criticize the tremendous trigger's weight.
- A Russian trick to greatly diminish the trigger's weight.
- An obsolete loading system.
- The Nagant 7.62 mm cartridge comparatively to the others.
- How to use of the .32-20 Winchester case for reloading.
The Nagant revolvers of the Belgian Army
- Specific markings.
- The model 1878 in caliber 9,4 mm.
- The 9,4 mm Nagant cartridge.
- The model 1883 in single action.
- The model 1878/86 in double action with a simplified lock.
- The model 1883 in double action.
- Belgian Army revolvers holsters
- Five models presented.
The Nagant revolvers of the Grand-duché of Luxembourg
- First model termed "Officers Mod. 1884".
- Second model termed "Mod. 1884 for officers with safety".
- Third model or Mod. 1884 for gendarme.
- The removable bayonet.
- Table of the different models compared.
The Swedish Nagant revolvers
- The Swedish model 1887 in caliber 7,5 mm.
- The Husqvarna production.
The Serbian Nagant revolvers
- The Serbian Nagant Mod. 1891
- Technical characteristics of the Serbian model.
- Specific markings
The Nagant revolvers of South America
- The South American Nagant in cal. 11 mm.
- The .44 Nagant Brazilian (11,2 x 20R) and .440 Nagant Argentinian (11,2 x 22R).
- The South American Nagant revolvers compared to the Belgian 1878 to 1886 models.
- Table of comparison.
The Nagant revolver Mod. 1910
- When León Nagant passed away.
- The Nagant brothers decided to improve the model 1895.
- Characteristics of the model 1910
Nagant's patents about firearms
- Patents list
- The current value of the Nagant revolvers (B & B sales)
More Q&A >>
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